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	<title>Comments on: Plot vs Premise: Running Crime Games</title>
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	<link>http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/67/plot-vs-premise-running-crime-games/</link>
	<description>art of the game, roleplaying game theory from the brain of ben robbins</description>
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		<title>By: Widukind</title>
		<link>http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/67/plot-vs-premise-running-crime-games/comment-page-1/#comment-19221</link>
		<dc:creator>Widukind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 06:26:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Very interesting comments.

It calls to mind the difference between &quot;story&quot; and &quot;plot.&quot; Story is, &quot;this happened, then this happened, then this happened,&quot; a chronological sequencing, while plot shows causality for why events happened.

It&#039;s interesting and relevant, because as GMs/adventure designers, we often think in terms of &quot;plot&quot; and are tempted to force a party along our plotted course. But really, it all depends on what they do--the A then B then C--and how their actions interact with NPC actions, etc. So it&#039;s really story that occurs, not plot, in a gaming session, if this occurs.

And thus it&#039;s more like life than a novel; in a novel, the ending has already been written; the author has predetermined it, whereas while we live our lives now, we don&#039;t know what is going to happen. We can only see &quot;plot&quot; or causality after the fact, when our minds try to make sense of events.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting comments.</p>
<p>It calls to mind the difference between &#8220;story&#8221; and &#8220;plot.&#8221; Story is, &#8220;this happened, then this happened, then this happened,&#8221; a chronological sequencing, while plot shows causality for why events happened.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s interesting and relevant, because as GMs/adventure designers, we often think in terms of &#8220;plot&#8221; and are tempted to force a party along our plotted course. But really, it all depends on what they do&#8211;the A then B then C&#8211;and how their actions interact with NPC actions, etc. So it&#8217;s really story that occurs, not plot, in a gaming session, if this occurs.</p>
<p>And thus it&#8217;s more like life than a novel; in a novel, the ending has already been written; the author has predetermined it, whereas while we live our lives now, we don&#8217;t know what is going to happen. We can only see &#8220;plot&#8221; or causality after the fact, when our minds try to make sense of events.</p>
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		<title>By: Rybec Arthdar</title>
		<link>http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/67/plot-vs-premise-running-crime-games/comment-page-1/#comment-2274</link>
		<dc:creator>Rybec Arthdar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 01:14:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/67/plot-vs-premise-running-crime-games/#comment-2274</guid>
		<description>I think the point with the crime for money is that it could be any crime.  They may need the money for plot purposes, but it is not relevant that they are robbing a bank.  They could be robbing anything.  They could be getting jobs at McDonald&#039;s to get the money.  With the other examples the crime is required to meet the ends of the plot.  If they don&#039;t get the laser, they can&#039;t destroy the satellite.  If they don&#039;t get the money from the bank... well, they can just get it somewhere else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the point with the crime for money is that it could be any crime.  They may need the money for plot purposes, but it is not relevant that they are robbing a bank.  They could be robbing anything.  They could be getting jobs at McDonald&#8217;s to get the money.  With the other examples the crime is required to meet the ends of the plot.  If they don&#8217;t get the laser, they can&#8217;t destroy the satellite.  If they don&#8217;t get the money from the bank&#8230; well, they can just get it somewhere else.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick_TWA</title>
		<link>http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/67/plot-vs-premise-running-crime-games/comment-page-1/#comment-1373</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick_TWA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jun 2007 14:02:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/67/plot-vs-premise-running-crime-games/#comment-1373</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d have to argue about the &quot;doing X for money&quot; not necesarily being plot.  Every example of what IS plot there could easily be replaced with &quot;Doing X for money to buy Y&quot;  I would think that ANY crime could be plot IF it&#039;s a stepping stone in a further crime.


IE: Doing X for money to:
hire the services of another villian whose talents will be indespensible in your next crime.
buy a nuclear bomb on the black market to hold the city for ransom.
buy a private island from which your squad of ninja will operate as they terrorize the free world.

I WILL, however contend that there&#039;s almost CERTAINLY always a better fitting crime than &quot;Doing X for money&quot;.  IE:
Breaking a villan out of prison - to secure his serrvices
Stealing fusionable material - to arm a bomb to hold the city hostge
Attacking a private island - to secure a base for your ninja squad


Especially since in these &quot;better fit scenarios&quot; there&#039;s almost always a way to make things more interesting than in the &quot;do X for money&quot; scenario.  IE:

Breaking into a high-security prison and starting a riot and jailbreak to cover your rescue of a villian neccesary to your scheme - Players have to deal with stopping the prisoners from escaping, saving the prison personel, dealing with a handful of c-string superviallians that were also being held at the prison, all while realizing that it&#039;s all just a cover for the escape of one particular villan orchestrated by another and putting a stop to it.

Stealing fusionable material from a millitary instalation, where the dangerous guards aren&#039;t likely to distinguish between one caped nutball and the next and of course can&#039;t be harmed.  OR Stealing fusionable material from a terrorist organization where the heros (if they think quickly) have to decide how to capture/identify the terrorists, grab all the information they can about their members and leaders so they can stop their greater organizartion, AND stop you from stealing from them. 

Attacking a lush jungle island with your silent ninja squad then tricking the native defenders into thinking the initial attack was made by the heros as they come to help.  As the two sides fight amonst themselves in the heat, low visibility and dangerous terrain, your ninja squad harry both sides, crippling communication, placing misinformation, and keep them fighting each other until they&#039;re both weak enough to take out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d have to argue about the &#8220;doing X for money&#8221; not necesarily being plot.  Every example of what IS plot there could easily be replaced with &#8220;Doing X for money to buy Y&#8221;  I would think that ANY crime could be plot IF it&#8217;s a stepping stone in a further crime.</p>
<p>IE: Doing X for money to:<br />
hire the services of another villian whose talents will be indespensible in your next crime.<br />
buy a nuclear bomb on the black market to hold the city for ransom.<br />
buy a private island from which your squad of ninja will operate as they terrorize the free world.</p>
<p>I WILL, however contend that there&#8217;s almost CERTAINLY always a better fitting crime than &#8220;Doing X for money&#8221;.  IE:<br />
Breaking a villan out of prison &#8211; to secure his serrvices<br />
Stealing fusionable material &#8211; to arm a bomb to hold the city hostge<br />
Attacking a private island &#8211; to secure a base for your ninja squad</p>
<p>Especially since in these &#8220;better fit scenarios&#8221; there&#8217;s almost always a way to make things more interesting than in the &#8220;do X for money&#8221; scenario.  IE:</p>
<p>Breaking into a high-security prison and starting a riot and jailbreak to cover your rescue of a villian neccesary to your scheme &#8211; Players have to deal with stopping the prisoners from escaping, saving the prison personel, dealing with a handful of c-string superviallians that were also being held at the prison, all while realizing that it&#8217;s all just a cover for the escape of one particular villan orchestrated by another and putting a stop to it.</p>
<p>Stealing fusionable material from a millitary instalation, where the dangerous guards aren&#8217;t likely to distinguish between one caped nutball and the next and of course can&#8217;t be harmed.  OR Stealing fusionable material from a terrorist organization where the heros (if they think quickly) have to decide how to capture/identify the terrorists, grab all the information they can about their members and leaders so they can stop their greater organizartion, AND stop you from stealing from them. </p>
<p>Attacking a lush jungle island with your silent ninja squad then tricking the native defenders into thinking the initial attack was made by the heros as they come to help.  As the two sides fight amonst themselves in the heat, low visibility and dangerous terrain, your ninja squad harry both sides, crippling communication, placing misinformation, and keep them fighting each other until they&#8217;re both weak enough to take out.</p>
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		<title>By: Crimes as Plots or Premises - Treasure Tables</title>
		<link>http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/67/plot-vs-premise-running-crime-games/comment-page-1/#comment-1372</link>
		<dc:creator>Crimes as Plots or Premises - Treasure Tables</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:37:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/67/plot-vs-premise-running-crime-games/#comment-1372</guid>
		<description>[...] Ben Robbins, author of ars ludi, has an excellent post up about how to use crimes as the basis for adventures. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Ben Robbins, author of ars ludi, has an excellent post up about how to use crimes as the basis for adventures. [...]</p>
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