West Marches: Running Your Own
Alarming fact: brave GMs all over the place are taking up the torch and starting their own West Marches games. Scary isn’t it?
I’ve already had some private email conversations about how one would actually build and run a West Marches of their very own. Maybe you’ve got the bug too. Early symptoms include a desire to build vast wilderness areas and enlist hordes of players to explore it. Sound familiar? Then read on for a few (hopefully) helpful tips:
make town safe and the wilds wild — Having the town be physically secure (walled or in some cases protected by natural features like rivers or mountains) is very useful for making a sharp “town = safe / wilderness = danger” distinction. Draconian law enforcement inside town, coupled with zero enforcement in the wilds outside town, also helps. Once you are outside the town you are on your own.
keep NPC adventurers rare — Or even better non-existent. It’s up to the players to explore the wilderness, not NPCs. As soon as you have NPCs going on adventures of their own you move the focus away from player-initiated action. NPC adventurers also makes it harder to explain why interesting things weren’t already discovered — players love being the first to find the Horned Tower or the Abbot’s Study. Keep this in mind when you devise the background for your region. Is it a newly opened frontier? Or is adventuring just something no one in their right mind does in this world (the West Marches premise)?
build dungeons with treasure rooms, locked rooms, pockets of danger — A solid party may be able to wipe out the primary critters in a dungeon, but there should always be spots that are a lot harder to clear. On those rare occasions when a group _does_ manage to clear a dungeon or crack a treasure room, they will stand on the tables in the tavern and cheer, not in some small part to brag to the other players who weren’t on that sortie.
appear passive — The world may be active, but you the GM should appear to be passive. You’re not killing the party, the dire wolf is. It’s not you, it’s the world. Encourage the players to take action, but leave the choices up to them. Rolling dice in the open helps a lot. The sandbox game really demands that you remain neutral about what the players do. It’s their decisions that will get them killed or grant them fame and victory, not yours. That’s the whole idea.
provide an easy lead to get new players started — Once players are out exploring, each new discovery motivates them to search more, but how do you get them started? Every time I introduced a batch of new players I gave them a very basic treasure map that vaguely pointed to somewhere in the West Marches and then let them go look for it. Whether it was the dwarven “treasure beyond bearing” or the gold buried beneath the Red Willow, a no-brainer “go look for treasure here” clue gets the players out of town and looking around. Of course once the players are in the wilds, they may find that getting to that treasure is much harder than it looks.
the adventure is in the wilderness, not the town — As per the discussion of NPCs above, be careful not to change the focus to urban adventure instead of exploration. You can have as many NPCs as you want in town, but remember it’s not about them. Once players start talking to town NPCs, they will have a perverse desire to stay in town and look for adventure there. “Town game” was a dirty word in West Marches. Town is not a source of info. You find things by exploring, not sitting in town — someone who explores should know more about what is out there than someone in town.
let the players take over — Don’t write game summaries, don’t clean up the shared map. You want the players to do all those things. If you do it, you’ll just train them not to.
competition is what it’s all about — Fair rewards, scarcity, bragging rights — these are the things that push the game higher. You could have a “solo” West Marches game with just one group doing all the exploring, and it would probably be a fun and pleasant affair, but it’s _nothing_ compared to the frenzy you’ll see when players know other players are out there finding secrets and taking treasure that _they_ could be getting, if only they got their butts out of the tavern. (Hmm, is this why I get a kick out of running Agon? It’s true, I’m a cruel GM.)
require scheduling on the mailing list — It doesn’t matter whether a bunch of players agreed to go on an adventure when they were out bowling, they have to announce it on the mailing list or web forum (whichever you’re using for your scheduling). This prevents the game from splintering into multiple separate games. If you notice cliques forming you can make a rule requiring parties to mix after two adventures. Conversely if you notice players being dropped from follow-up sorties too often just because some people can’t wait to play, you can require parties to stay together for two adventures. That forces a little more long time strategy in party selection, less greedy opportunism. Season to taste.
fear the social monster — This is the big, big grand-daddy or all warnings: even more so than many games, West Marches is a social beast. In normal games players have an established place in the group. They know they are supposed to show up every Tuesday to play — they don’t have to think about that or worry about whether they “belong” in the group. On the other hand West Marches is a swirling vortex of ambition and insecurity. How come no one replied when I tried to get a group together last week? Why didn’t anybody invite me to raid the ogre cave? And so on and so on ad infinitum. The thrilling success or catastrophic failure of your West Marches game will largely hinge on the confidence or insecurity of your player pool. Buckle up.
Running your own West Marches game? Post a link in the comments so everyone can take a look and grow green with envy. I’ve got some links I need to post but if you hurry you can beat me to it.
had an optional level 6 encounter area that they charged headlong into
…
I didn’t have the heart to kill the entire party (the cleric at least died). I think I should have killed the entire party. Would you guys have done it?
I was just having a similar discussion about another West Marches-style game. Did the players have any way of knowing they were going into great danger? Were they voluntarily taking a risk?
First of all, thanks for the attention and the advice Ron!
After browsing this site last night i introduced about 6 or 7 mechanic-tweaks and tested them tonight on level 1 characters. It was great! The newest player in the group used his 6′ long sword every step of the way poking for pits after their guide was skewered in a spike pit trap, and he’s never heard of the 10′ pole from od&d and had no hints from anyone! It was awesome. Some truly creative trap disarming, including using coffins from another area to jam a pit trap so they could climb down afterwards- the quality of the playing skill doubled.
ISSUE: had an optional level 6 encounter area that they charged headlong into, after they did ridiculously good and refused to lose heart even while on potential-failed-death-saving throw 3 (a natural 20, couldn’t believe it, he was back on his feet), I didn’t have the heart to kill the entire party (the cleric at least died). I think I should have killed the entire party. Would you guys have done it?
AzaLin,
I ran my game in a similar fashion as the WM. I’m a regular reader of this blog, and I think if you read some other posts regarding game theory, you can reckon an answer to your own questions:
1. Yes, the wilderness/city analogy is accurate. Gathering info depends on how much you want to rp it. Let the players tell you who they’re going to talk with, what they look for in the library, what questions they ask, etc. Here’s the spot to toss out some new hooks or give a bit of info they missed earlier. Note there’s no ‘Gather Info’ skill in 4e…a move toward more role-play?
2. Knowing what to look for when searching for a wolf den is one thing, getting there is a different story, yes?
3. See post 45, above.
4. Interesting wilderness maps: vary the terrain: gigantic pine forest; ancient, dense, choked forest; tall grassland slashed by shallow streams. with twisting caves bored throughout the hillside; cliffs (tons of cinematic possibilities); magical areas (pools, fairie rings); areas that are haunted or touched by another plane; submerged forest; Everglades-type swamp. Use the mundane and fantastical. Read or watch the LoTR series for inspiration.
As for random encounters, think of the ecology of the area: giants and trolls will be near the top of the food chain, and maybe they’ve eaten most other creatures nearby (infrequent checks); maybe the gnolls are at war with the neighboring hobgoblins and both sides send our regular patrols to keep watch over their turf (frequent, predictable checks). Or perhaps an area is just a bad part of the woods, and you check once per (in-game) hour.
*Relate the random encounters to your question #8. Lots of wandering will lead ot lots of encounters that will wear the party down, making an even-level encounter a bit tougher. This forces the party to consider their resources more carefully.
5. Decide who built the dungeon there and why. Was it a dungeon beneath a keep? Probably a few jail cells and an armory. A wizard’s tower? Alchemy room, exotic zoo, etc. Evil temple? Torture chamber, sacrifice altar, portal to the abyss. Dwarven stronghold? Many levels, but overrun by mind flayers…
6. Depends on the distance the party is travelling, the landmarks along the way, their familiarity with the area, the party’s mapping skill, and of course, die rolls.
7. The players should have a destination in mind, if not a goal once they get there. If the players are not experienced or they’re foolish enough just to decide their PCs will knock around the wilderness for a while, the players will come to realize what a poor choice they made. Don’t let your party wander just because they missed the ruins by a square or two- and really, with wide-open, uncharted lands, what’s to say that the ruins are not right where you need them to be?
8. Again, random encounters help. Also, remember that the party is probably on unfamiliar turf (literally). Environmental hazards (dire leaches in the swamp?), traps set by cunning monsters, even bad weather can force the PCs into places where they can’t rest. Attack them when they’re in a disadvantagous spot- crossing a river or climbing a hillside or while they make camp. Make sure you’re using all the wit, firepower and resources at the monster’s disposal- 4 levels above the party level *should* be a tough fight.
I wish I was a PC in a campaign like West Marches.
I’m dungeon mastering a 4e game, and it’s going great; are you familiar with the (massive) changes? I have a lot of questions! if you answer half of them you’ll invogorate my game in a huge way!
1. Streetwise; you mentioned your players poking around town, gathering little tidbits of information; how much was rolling dice, and how much was roleplaying and exploring town and stuff? This would be less-important in the west marches setting, but nonetheless, i’m unsure how to handle this without it feeling like a grind. I bring it up because scouring a city for information in a freeform way is similar in many respects to sandbox wilderness exploration, just that there are npcs and city places instead of monsters and swamps.
2. Knowledge: Nature, Arcana, and Dungeoneering; when my druid rolls a nature check to discover the location of the wolves den, i have no idea how to handle the situation, because it somewhat bypasses the whole exploring motif that i want to encourage.
3. Foraging, part of Nature checks: how do you handle hunting and foraging? do you simply make the player roll the dice and reward him with food?
4. Wilderness maps: how do you make interesting wilderness maps? how frequent are random encounters? whats the ratio of random encounters versus location encounters? (i know it depends, but if they’re exploring a new forest, how many randoms do they fight before they find the ruins and go to the dungeon in an average session?)
5. Dungeon design: 4-5 room dungeons? I’m not sure how to make those interesting. Could you give an example of one you ran?
6. getting lost checks: how frequent? every mile?
7. exploration grind: with only random encounters, unlucky directional choices, and somewhat similar terrain, finding nothing exceptionally interesting for a while, how did you prevent this from becoming a grind for the players? once again, i have my rogue in mind.
8. THE IMPORTANT ONE: in 4e, the characters are more powerful than in other editions. A first level character can kill about 8 townspeople or a squad of guardsmen, and a 40hp (level 2) character can heal, without a cleric, 110hp a day using ‘healing surges.’ I dont know how to make combat dangerous for them because encounters 4 levels above them can’t take them out, and after the fight they’re as fresh as can be, but more importantly, i dont know how to inflict attrition upon them over the course of a trek. There’s no incentive for avoiding fights unless there’s zero chance of surviving.
@ Ckutalik
Did you ever find yourself at the point where you needed to encourage players to break up a little?
Oh yeah. The infamous “Opal Caves congo line” comes to mind.
Being heavy-handed or not isn’t really the question. It’s part of the GM’s job to moderate the event, and inviting 9 players just ensures that no one gets to play much.
Just set a hard limit on group size — 5 or 6 is really the high end. If it’s a special occasion you can break that rule (West Marches players are now reminiscing about the chaos of the hydra hunt) but it’s not going to make a great game. Anyone who wasn’t in the last session automatically gets dibs for the next game session, if they can make it. They’ll be scheduling strife and negotiation for who goes in what group and angst over missing a game, but that’s how it works. Remind the players that they are better off playing half as often in good games than all the time in bad games where they get to do nothing.
After a session or two with 9 people, I’ll bet if you ask the players they would be all for smaller groups. Unless they’re just happy coasting in the middle of the congo line.
If imitation really is the highest form of flattery, then your campaign write-up has had it in spades. Kudos for getting this experiment out there into the public sphere.
We have played six sessions down here in Texas in a Castles and Crusades campaign I drew up to accommodate the chaotic schedules of our players–and it’s worked well enough to grow the original group of three players up to a fluid group now of ten. I intentionally tried to incorporate a number of ideas from the West Marches to better match this revolving PC kinda of play. (If anyone is interested you can see our campaign blog at: http://hillcantons.blogspot.com)
It’s already interesting noting some of the departure points that my own players’ style has made for the campaign from West Marches. Despite my initial encouragement, for instance, they have been extremely reluctant to adventure in separate groups. Instead, we have settled into having a core group of four players sticking together with a revolving cast of six others who drop in and out of their party. From my perspective as GM this at first turned out to a bit easier to manage and passed the all-important “is it fun?” test.
But at our last session we had nine players at the table, and while still fun for them the session was pretty chaotic and I fear the long-term manageability of these big party sessions. Did you ever find yourself at the point where you needed to encourage players to break up a little? My players don’t seem to have caught the semi-competitive vibe of yours that seem to have been part of the motor behind separate parties, but we definitely already have some leadership conflicts brewing. Any ideas on how to push a little in this direction without being too heavy-handed?
I wanted to say that my West Marches campaign is 4 games old, only a newborn, but it’s about to spawn a second group and so far, the concept is working well. I’m documenting the games on my blog.
Here are two links:
Specific post after first 3 games: http://oldguyrpg.blogspot.com/2009/02/dark-ages-and-west-marches-style-of.html
All posts regarding my Dark Ages game: http://oldguyrpg.blogspot.com/search/label/dark%20ages%20campaign
Thanks again for the feedback and kind comments, Ben! I hope my game lasts at least another 96.
Mostly the real life social issues more than anything else.
Yep. See comment 41. The game started drawing to a close when I stopped enforcing the scheduling rules and let (and even encouraged) parties split off and just adventure separately all the time. That defeated the whole point and made it just an ordinary game. Which was fine for a little bit, but then it was time to try other things.
But keep in mind we played a hundred games before it went bust, so don’t let that scare you off Red. If anything the game lasted longer because of the charter.
I think the level range was between 2nd and 7th (this is 3rd Ed). And even at the end there was still no shortage of dangerous areas as we continued expanding out.
Mostly, I think (from a player perspective) it was just that we’d been playing it for several years and the player mix had changed, people schedules changed, etc. So really just a combination of real life getting in the way and (a little bit) looking for some variety. Mostly the real life social issues more than anything else.
Following up on Red’s query, what level (approximately) were most of the characters when West Marches ended? Did the party’s increasing level contribute to a general winding down of the campaign, once various dangerous areas proved not so dangerous anymore?
So. A long running campaign of mine is about to end from player life and schedule changes. The Western Marches in particular (and your blog in general) have been inspiring.
I’m thinking of a Western Marches ‘troupe’ style sandbox, with either Castles and Crusades or a slimed-downed quickened 4E. I’ve got material and ideas for either.
My question: Western Marches ended. While all good things come to an end, what ended the Western Marches? Was there anything inherent in the premise that contributed to that end? Was there anything you’d do different?
thanks much for your efforts in sharing this.
I’m actually running a West Marches-style sandbox game using Savage Worlds right now.
Rock on, Patrick!
There were a few hiccups in terms of GM fatigue and real-world interference, but we’re back to exploring the hell out of the wilderness.
That’s one nice thing about the player-driven scheduling is that even if you get tired, the players keep pulling you back in.
when PCs died did the player have to “start over” and create a new level 1 PC? and find other level 1′s to play?
That was the method at the start, but after a while we switched to letting people start at half the level of the dead character. It all depends how large and varied your PC population is.
you mentioned regional encounter tables – did you create those from scratch or did you borrow/modify them from some other source? how many encounters did they have 10, 12 or did they vary by region?
From scratch of course, since the whole point was to reflect the character of the region.
Number of entries varied by region. Complex regions with lots of different species and types of hazards (rockslides, etc) had more encounters, but comparatively quiet places like open plains had a lot fewer.
our weekly 4e d&d group is running into scheduling issues now after beginning last summer (is that long?). our DM mentioned WM to me and this sounds like a great possible solution – kudos. i was starting to feel bummed out but this has really re-energized me. i’m going to start mapping out a WM style setting now too and i’m planning on using the dungeon delve for the encounters (i’m a new DM and kinda lazy/short on prep time). i do have a couple questions:
1 – when PCs died did the player have to “start over” and create a new level 1 PC? and find other level 1′s to play? did anybody create new PC’s at a level where there were more chances of getting together with other players?
2- you mentioned regional encounter tables – did you create those from scratch or did you borrow/modify them from some other source? how many encounters did they have 10, 12 or did they vary by region?
3-any chance to see a sample/portion of a region/table/summary?
I’m actually running a West Marches-style sandbox game using Savage Worlds right now. Truth be told we’re only using the Savage Worlds rule system; the setting itself is inspired heavily by Goodman Games’ Points of Light book that came out last year.
We’re about 7 sessions into the game, and it’s going well. There were a few hiccups in terms of GM fatigue and real-world interference, but we’re back to exploring the hell out of the wilderness. Savage Worlds is a fine system for this because of its Raise mechanic. Success or failure is pretty easy for the players to gauge based on their own die rolls, and the benny mechanic gives them a small degree of control over their own destiny.
If you’re interested, hop over to my blog and browse around. The “sandbox” tag should be a good starting point.
After reading this, I immediately decided that I wanted to play this using Savage Worlds. Partly because I’m already running a 3.5 game, but also because I know a bit more about the system of SW.
The first two settings that went through my mind as I read this were Deadlands and 50 Fathoms. Those two settings are almost built around exploration of the unknown, while still keeping the encounters dangerous.
What do you think? Any recommendations?
I’d be interested in seeing your notes for a particular wilderness area or two. Not so much for the actual content (which, as you note, isn’t the remarkable thing about this campaign) — but just to see what information you included and how you organized it.
A strong concept goes a long way. If you have a distinct flavor and don’t just through in random things even a basic dungeon can be pretty intriguing.
Just for interests sake, what was the concept/themes you used?
@ Mitchell
Anyway, one thing that was bugging me… if parties are sort of ‘frozen’ in one spot until they get back to town, what if another party comes to explore the same area?
Originally parties were supposed to get back to town by the end of the game, but there was more and more camping as the game went on. There was a standing rule of etiquette to avoiding going places that were near other parties, to avoid that very kind of situation — we scheduled on-list so everyone knew where they could or couldn’t go. It would have been a logistical pain in the neck (for me) so I didn’t allow it.
On the other hand, if a party went out, found something and raided it but didn’t clear it, then came back to town and meant to go back but didn’t get around to it, there were cases where other players would decide to form parties to go explore that same spot and see what goodies had been overlooked. The players from the first group would cry foul, but that was too bad for them — they didn’t have a flag of ownership on the place. Anyone could go try their luck at the ruined monastery, assuming they could find the place. Of course if they are doing it against the wishes of the people who’ve already been there they aren’t likely to be given helpful warnings, like that they should watch out for the ghouls prowling in the crypts… That’s what you get for not cooperating.
@ Rod
-How complex were the individual dungeons as a rule? 30+ locations of interest? A dozen or less? Varying by dungeon?
Many were quite small (4-5 rooms) but major dungeons were much larger. Small sites were the most flexible.
-For want of a better way to put it, would you say you invested a lot or a little of “cleverness” in each dungeon
There was usually at least one or two interesting things in every site (either something to deal with immediately or a snippet of lore). Of course you never knew which parts players would find or wouldn’t, so lots of the really interesting stuff remained hidden (like the Treasure Rooms).
A strong concept goes a long way. If you have a distinct flavor and don’t just through in random things even a basic dungeon can be pretty intriguing.
-This may be a goofy question, but how big in real world terms was the West Marches? As big as Wales? France? Bigger?
Honestly, no idea. Probably much smaller.
One thing I’m a little unclear on: was there just the one town for the whole game area?
Yep, one town. There were two minor outposts (the Stockade and the Watchtower) that could be used as refuge, but they weren’t someone place you could live.
oh, and by ‘frozen’ in the first part, if it wasn’t obvious, I meant in between game sessions for that party. I’m just trying to get an idea of how time goes by relatively between parties.
Hey, I have a few questions as well, but before that, great post! I spent a good hour and a half reading it and the discussion following it instead of homework… essays to write and whatnot.
Anyway, one thing that was bugging me… if parties are sort of ‘frozen’ in one spot until they get back to town, what if another party comes to explore the same area? What if they stumble upon the first party that’s camped within or just outside of a dungeon? Of course, I’m thinking, what if this happened by chance and how did you deal with it? If the second party bypassed the first party and looted the dungeon and left, the first party would be very pissed off, especially if there was a player or two that really wanted to continue, but they couldn’t because other players had scheduling conflicts…
Also, I’d be totally stoked to play this style with my friends once I move back home for the summer (I’m in university right now), but although our games are quite large on a regular basis (usually around double the normal party size, like 6-10 people on average), can it work alright with smaller parties? Or, if a player is suddenly having scheduling conflicts, can the rest of the party abandon them in the middle of a dungeon so they can continue playing later sessions? Also, some of the regular players wanted to leave around 1am (as we always start late in the evenings), but the rest of us often go for another couple of hours, so any suggestions on how to solve that problem in-game? I mean, my only thought would be that maybe you could give the party a ‘scroll of town portal’ type thing every once in awhile, but it takes 10 minutes to cast (in game), so they couldn’t use it as an escape tool (during a fight anyway), but that way certain players could ‘go home’ while the other players continued without them. But I see problems to that idea, like getting them back in the action… Any suggestions?
Hi,
Since this comment thread is still active, I’d like to to add some more questions if I may. I just read through all the West Marches comment threads so hopefully these won’t be redundant:
-How complex were the individual dungeons as a rule? 30+ locations of interest? A dozen or less? Varying by dungeon?
-For want of a better way to put it, would you say you invested a lot or a little of “cleverness” in each dungeon (by which I mean puzzles, tricks, set piece encounters, bits of setting lore that players can piece together — generally anything more involved than “location, monster or trap, treasure”)?
-This may be a goofy question, but how big in real world terms was the West Marches? As big as Wales? France? Bigger? One thing I’m a little unclear on: was there just the one town for the whole game area?
In any case, thanks for all the effort you’ve put into discussing and clarifying the West Marches!
@ Paddy
Just for interest sake, what scale did you use for your wilderness maps, 1 inch = 1 mile?
It was a vector map, so I could zoom in or out to any scale I wanted. I printed a variety of maps at different scales if I there were interesting things to see in the area. No one needs a close-up map at one inch = one inch of a barren plain.
@ Justin Alexander
(1) How was it handled mechanically? For example, I’m seeing references here to getting lost. But if I’m using the D&D 3.5 rules, it’s just a flat DC 15 Survival check to avoid getting lost.
Players might say “we’re in the forest, we’ll head north because we think that’s where the swamp is” then I roll to determine if they actually did head north. Failure indicates how much they deviate. Marginal failure means they know they got lost, extreme failure means they don’t know. Either way you just note where they really went on your map and tell them what they see. Nothing fancy. Go look at the painfully elaborate “getting lost” rules in AD&D for inspiration — I’m sure that’s where my thinking comes from.
Typically I’d just fudge these types of things, but given the “DM is a mediator, not a storyteller” feel of the campaign, I’m hesitant to adopt that.
There is always some fudge factor, because no two situations are exactly the same (unless you want to make a massive chart with weather conditions, light, percent chance of goblin spore, blah blah blah). The point is to be fair and logical, not just abstain. An impartial referee, as it were.
And beyond just describing the terrain and travel, how did you give the players meaningful choices/input into the exploration? If they said “we go to the Frog Marshes and wander around for a bit”, did you have a way of determining if they found the interesting features of the area? (And, if so, which interesting features they found.)
From my point of view “wander around for a bit” is an illegal instruction: as an impartial interpreter of player actions I don’t know what that means. What do you mean wander? Tell me where you’re going, north, south, what? If the players really do mean wander I’ll just roll random directions, but that’s obviously a bad plan.
Likewise short cuts like “we go to the Frog Marshes” were also illegal (at least until the character had been along a route so many times it was boring to talk about anymore). You say you want to go to the Frog Marshes and I say you’re at the gates of town, tell me what you’re doing. You can say “we walk west following the hills” and I say that’s fine — I don’t deal in long term objectives or abstract pathing, I tell you what you see in front of you. I say things like “you’ve gone 4 miles and now you see the hills turning south and a forest ahead of you.” The players say “ah, that’s Wil Wood, we’ve been there a dozen times already” and I just shrug because there’s no sign on it is there? Knowing whether it’s Wil Wood is their job.
As I said, if a character is a seasoned veteran who has been this way a million times, sure I’ll be more casual and take their experience into account, because that makes sense. If they’ve seen this spot before sure I’ll tell them. I’ll say “yeah that looks like the northern edge of Wil Wood to you.” I’m neutral, not a dick. But when they are in new territory they are back to square one.
did you have a way of determining if they found the interesting features of the area? (And, if so, which interesting features they found.)
Nothing fancy: if they wind up near something on the map, there’s a chance they’ll see it. The odds and method and reasonable distance all depend on what the thing is. Finding a castle in the plains: easy Spot at a great distance. Finding a sinkhole in a forest: much harder check at much closer distances, probably easier if you use Knowledge Nature to determine what kind of terrain would have sinkholes in it. Finding an owlbear lair: easier to use Wilderness Lore to follow the owlbear’s tracks.
Note that for logical searching to work, the design has to be logical too.
If people are just wandering around instead of looking for something specific (“light exploring” as it was euphemistically called), they would usually find a) new regions like forests or swamps they had never seen before and b) wandering monsters. Then they’d run away. Once they put those new frontiers on the map they would come back and take a closer look, maybe scouting around in the new forest they found, getting a better sense of what critters lived there and starting to get a feel for the place. Often that would give them clues of what else they could find there (if there are lots of goblins, they must live someplace). They’d also try to fit it into the puzzle of the surrounding terrain (is this where the goblins came from we saw prowling around in the hills to the south?). West Marches definitely followed the Treasure Tells A Story model: you kill some goblins, but they are carrying dwarven-crafted weapons carved with symbols of a forgotten clan. Hmm, sounds like there’s an abandoned dwarven lair somewhere in this region. If I was a dwarf, where would I build my stronghold?
Of course you could do things totally differently. Just make sure that player decisions still drive results, not random chance.
As I mentioned above, don’t be afraid to be the GM. Make judgment calls about what rolls are needed, whatever. If it looks like the party just walked straight to the ruins, fine they did. Just be fair and impartial. What happens should make sense, not be based on ulterior motives.
I’m curious about how the exploration was handled. This really breaks down into two queries:
(1) How was it handled mechanically? For example, I’m seeing references here to getting lost. But if I’m using the D&D 3.5 rules, it’s just a flat DC 15 Survival check to avoid getting lost. Obviously this could be modified, but I’m wondering if you could share the details of how this was actually handled. Did you just vary the DC of the check depending on the characteristics of the area; the availability/quality of maps and directions; etc.? How often were the checks made? How did you determine the outcome a failed check?
Typically I’d just fudge these types of things, but given the “DM is a mediator, not a storyteller” feel of the campaign, I’m hesitant to adopt that.
(2) Narratively how was it handled. One of the things that make dungeon crawls so attractive is that you’re never at a loss in terms of what you should be describing: It’s all on the map.
And beyond just describing the terrain and travel, how did you give the players meaningful choices/input into the exploration? If they said “we go to the Frog Marshes and wander around for a bit”, did you have a way of determining if they found the interesting features of the area? (And, if so, which interesting features they found.)
I can see how to construct this campaign from the standpoint of “at location A there will be clues leading to locations B, C, D, and E”. But I’m curious to know how (or if) the idea of just “I go out there and see what I find” was handled.
@will
My advice would be to start out by looking at a lot of the source material (dungeon maps & modules and so forth) available online to see how they do things. You can also use them, whole or partially, in your game and also use them as templates for creating your own. But keep in mind that what’s out there may not always be better then what you could do yourself. Even a West Marches style game could still have pre-built modules in it with just minor mods to the material.
Really the dungeon design & fictional history part of the game is not that different in a West Marches game then it is in a ‘standard’ plot-driven game. The big difference (I think) is that you are not designing things around a specific plot or story, its more free form. So if you are already running a game, then the dungeon design & history part of it will not be that much different. But it is true that in a WM game the background history info can be much more important, so if you’ve been avoiding that in your current game that could be a problem.
But really, if you want to run games (WM-style or other) it seems like these are skills that you would want to improve. And the best way to get better is to just do it. Using a lot of pre-made material can help get you started with that; for example taking a pre-built dungeon map and then coming up with your own story/history that fits into your campaign. This lets you only worry about one part of it instead of having to design the dungeon and the history. And then you can work up to doing it all yourself. Also, IMHO, it’s fine to take ideas from books & movies and use them for your history, especially when you are just getting started running games.
Hey, I want to make my own Western Marches game to, but I don’t really know how to design dungeons. Also, making detailed fictional histories is another weak point of mine.
Could you give me some advice?
Just for interest sake, what scale did you use for your wilderness maps, 1 inch = 1 mile?
There were no event-style encounters such as “the first night the party camps in the Black Hills they encounter 2d8 orcs” instead this was all handled by means of the random encounter tables?
Correct. Creatures in the environment reacted of course, so if you raid the kobold caves and flee you shouldn’t be surprised if a hunting party comes looking for you. Cause and effect.
Also, while there was no plot involved, were the characters given missions?
Nope. Well honestly it did happen once or twice, but that was a deviation from the model. There were also things like bandit bounties that anyone could try to collect.
I just recently read through the West Marches posts. Just to make sure I understand, was the entire structure of the adventures location-based set pieces? There were no event-style encounters such as “the first night the party camps in the Black Hills they encounter 2d8 orcs” instead this was all handled by means of the random encounter tables?
Also, while there was no plot involved, were the characters given missions? If so, by whom?
@ Inyssius,
We got the information from all sorts of sources. And because most of the area was populated “a long time ago” there were lots of old stories and legends. Sometimes we would hear of some mention of “the sacred lakes to the west” and then later while exploring someone would say “this area we’ve been wandering in sure has a bunch of lakes & temples; I bet this is that Sacred lakes area”. And from then on that area would be referred to as “the Sacred Lakes”. And there were people out and about in the wilds (bandits, other travelers, weird beekeeper druids, etc) who knew about the area.
There were old writings from way back when that would refer to various areas. Pretty much the only gaming that occurred in town was around plot hooks for going out on an adventure: the cleric finds some old records while cleaning the church that talk about the monastery “at the foothills of the goblin’s teeth mountains, just past centaur wood” so when you find the monastery you might guess that the wood you just passed through was Centaur wood.
And I think we “named” some areas ourselves simply by referring to it as “the frog marshes” or whatever from that point on. Since the adventurers were the ones coming back and carving the new information into the map (see “the table map” in the Grand Experiments: West Marches (part 2), Sharing Info post) even if they got it “wrong” (compared to what Ben had written in his notes, that is) that would be what stuck and everyone used from then on. Possibly to find out later that it was wrong, possibly it would never come up.
But how did the players know that region was called “Sacred Lakes”, or “The Centaur’s Grove”, or “Harbor Wood”? Did they get them from maps, or old legends, or the indigenous bhuka?
And I’m dying to see more in-play examples of this sort of game. What about those links you mentioned a while back?
@ Gamer Dude
The players started to ask that same question, which is a good thing.
They knew there were hunters from the town who ventured into the near wilds and there were rare individuals who lived in the wilds (like the Mad Hermit or the Keeper of Bees).
But more specifically, just because the lands were wild didn’t mean no one had never been there before. There were ruined monasteries and ancient crypts, all of which indicate people had lived in some parts. Then the question becomes: what happened since then?
Those were the relatively near areas: the farther out they got, the less anyone knew anything. The PCs did find human temples in the far-off Sacred Lakes region, but they were clearly from long ago and mostly forgotten in origin.
Another quick question that might have been answered…or not; You’re talking about all of these named regions, and you’ve also mentioned that the characters are THE ONLY adventurers. In other words, no one else really knows what’s out there. So, and this might be kind of thick headed, how did you introduce a “name” of an area to the party?
If no one else has experience out there, and there are no real “maps”, then how does a character know that they’re in a place called “The Centaur’s Grove”?
@PatrickWR
> How often did the PCs get lost?
We got lost _all the time_.
Unless we had been somewhere several times before (or it was an easily visible landmark) we would usually expect to spend time finding it and/or lost on the way. One of the things I really enjoyed was navigating with landmarks and not always taking a the direct route (you’ll get lost unless you follow the stream/cliffs/coast/ridgeline/etc!).
Getting lost is also a great way to explore. Fun quote from one game:
Ranger: To get there I think we need to go about an hour north, then an hour east, then an hour south, then about an hour west…..
@PatrickWR
> How important was food and water in your game?
We tried not to spend too much time with accounting and encumbrance, but it was definitely a factor. When heading out of town we would say how much food we were bringing and then we’d keep track of the days. And if you got lost in the winter you could be in real trouble! Folks with Survival (i.e. hunting) skill were nice to have along because they helped in not getting lost and in foraging for food. As much as I normally dislike this kind of nit-picky accounting I think you need it to really get the feel of being lost (or trapped somewhere*). Best is to use very simplified accounting so it doesn’t take much time itself but still allows lots of concern about food and/or water running low.
(* “Trapped somewhere” seemed to happen a lot too. I still remember the days trapped in a small room next to the Ghoul nest in the ruined monastery, waiting for the cleric to recover enough to wake up, heal us and get out; wondering if we would turn into ghouls from having to eat each other or from the ghouls outside the door. — Fun times.)
I started sketching out my own WM-style game for Savage Worlds a couple weeks ago, and we’ll probably start playing in another month. So I’m totally jazzed to play, and the players themselves aren’t quite sure what to think about this “plot-less” roleplaying style that I’ve been hyping so much. A couple questions for you, Ben:
How important was food and water in your game? I have a strong desire to make my characters mark off rations and hunt for fresh water, which is something I’ve never really bothered with in most fantasy games. It seems to fit very well with the survival/exploration theme.
How often did the PCs get lost? You made a reference to the required Wilderness Lore roll to get oriented…I’m wondering how often they botched this initial bearing.
@ Islayre d’Argolh
A question : am i the only one thinking that West March and E6 are naturally fit for each other ?
In another comment I mentioned that the game stayed in the low-level range the whole time (the highest character ever was 7th).
I think low-level works quite well for this kind of game. Higher level abilities like teleporting, scrying, etc change the dynamic of exploration. High level West Marches could work, but you would have to take these abilities into account. It would be a different kind of challenge.
Hello,
Thirst things thirst: excuse my french.
(…)
Ha, ha, ha.
(…)
Sorry
No, serious, i’m french so, please, excuse my poor english level
I am actually running a West March session since the first days of july.
And its bloody cool: my players really enjoy this “old school game”, i don’t have a lot of work to do (well, actually, all the work is already done: a few days of work before the first game and no more after that) and the all concept is working like a charm.
So i really want to thank Ben for the inspiration (i’m a hudge fan of this blog).
I use a 3.5 OGL-based -mécanic of my own for this game.
The system is, in fact, deeply inspired by the concept au E6.
It’s low and gritty fantasy.
I could see that Ryan Stoughton is reading this blog so i want to really thank him too for this simple but genial idea.
A question : am i the only one thinking that West March and E6 are naturally fit for each other ?
@ Restless
So, why’d you stop?
It was the social monster. It’s a fine line between “extreme enthusiasm” and “destructive obsession.” The game worked for over 100 sessions (which isn’t bad) but eventually the trouble outweighed the fun. But your game doesn’t have to turn out that way…